From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Sat May 13 17:56:36 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Saturday, May 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 852 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: what I meant to type... Re: fsj: Re: Re: full size fsj: Re: Cherokee V8 Conversion Re: fsj: Re: Cherokee V8 Conversion fsj: Black Cherry fsj: TH400 dipstick fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: SUVs bad fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: SUVs bad fsj: What's a T5 cost? Re: fsj: What's a T5 cost? fsj: Sw Ohio 2000 FSJ Fest - A Big Hit FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: what I meant to type... A: 4.2 crank (although many prefer the early 6 weight crank) 4.2L rods (707 casting preferred, which AMC 360s use) 4.0L block and pistons. HO head is preferred, but Renix and 4.2L both work as well (different compression ratios because of the chamber size) You can check out the files and past posts in http://www.egroups.com/group/strokers John wrote: what I meant to type... was fuel injected... 'cause I don't remember what chebby calls the squirters on Whit's LT motor... all I know is it sounded really nice and looked like it came from the factory as installed. I still think the 4.0L is the best way of going... :) Hey somebody want to explain, or list exactly what's needed to make one of these stroker motors? =A0 Is it a 258 crank with the 4.0L block, head and normal fuel injection setup? Which rods are used? don't forget that Sunday would NOT be a good day to go wheeling or working on your rig... UNLESS "she" is actively involved and interested in doing so... ;) john ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:06:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Re: full size A: Wasn't Fat Boy one of the Hiroshima bombs? Or was that Fat man and little boy? (b4 my time). Could be worse! Man of La Mancha is a bit of dementia too! You wrote: If you get it you'll have to send me some pictures. :) Fat Boy's, huh? ;) Good thing with my physique I don't live in Oz, 'cause then my Waggy would be "Fat Boy's Fat Boy"! I'm what the Big/Tall men's shops call a "Man of Dimension" In my case, should be a "Man of Dementia" kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=13998&Auth=false ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:56:35 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: Cherokee V8 Conversion At 08:58 PM 5/12/00 -0700, Michael L. Fletcher wrote: >Thanks for mailing me back with youre comments John. I was definitely >interested in what you had to say about the potential problems others have >had in getting other V8s fit into an XJ especally an '85. I wasn't aware >that the '85 had a smaller compartment that '87 and later and that Advance >Adapter stopped making mounts due to the associated problems. > >I've been thinking lot harder about a Buick Turbo V6 or a supercharged V6. >Higher tech, but smaller, with similar big horsepower potential. I was just >visiting a site where Kenne Bell in conjuction with Chrysler modified a new >Grand Cherokee with a supercharger and some other performance enhancements. >Any word on anyone doing a turbo V6 conversion? Sounds like my 455 dream is >dead, I momentarily forgot about smog problems here in CA. >>Mike >>Thanks again for your input. The Buick 3.8L with a Turbo on it is a known vette slayer. :) REmember the Grand National ? :) I built a Buick 3.8L up, stuffed it in a Luv, then yarded it out of that and put it in a 67 Wagoneer!!! And it worked quite nicely, still is. I only lost 2 seconds in the 0 to 60 realm over the Kaiser 327, but picked up 2 mpg! Since your xj has the 2.8L (probably) already, this is a lot easier to do. I'm not sure if the overall length of the 3.8L is more than the 2.8L or not... might be. But if it is, then you can solve that problem by getting the radiator support from an 87 up and using the flatter fans. You might also want to check the digests for both the xj and fsj lists as there were several comments made about this. Of course opinions, experience, ideas and comments will vary on topics like this. It's always best to gather all the information you can. I was reading Robert Bryce's piece on the 4.0L stroker motor and he said: ( http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/bryce/stroker/research.asp ) ===============BEGIN ========================== The first step in any project such as this must be research. Some phone calls to companies producing stroker kits indicated that 4.2L (258ci) crankshafts can be and in fact are used. However, beyond this, information became difficult to obtain and was often contradictory. One source stated that custom rods and pistons must be used with the 258 crankshaft but refused to say why. In fact, I was told I could quote them on this! But finally after many phone calls, and faced with the research outlined below, they admitted it was possible to build a stroker using the right combination of factory parts. However, that was qualified with the statement that by using factory parts, the resulting engine would be a revver, not a torquer. This company will not be named nor mentioned in this article. Other sources suggested that the right combination of factory components should work but couldn't produce details, or say for sure whether it was possible. So this project began by determining what combination of factory, and possibly custom parts, could be used - in theory. I state "in theory" because the actual assembly of components is needed to finally determine whether a combination of parts found on paper will actually work. ============== END ============================== ( http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/bryce/stroker/research.asp) Ideas, experience and memory... it all varies. What may have been a piece of cake for one guy may have kept someone else from even getting started. In the UNIX world we usually suffix a comment with "ymmv". (your mileage may vary), which basically means, there is no guarantee that what worked for me yesterday will work for you today, or for that matter for me... ;) So, it is possible to a V8, and has been done many times. However, I think you'll be happier with the v6 setup in an older xj. You might even consider going to the 3.4L Chevy or the 4.3L Chevy as they'll bolt right in and have the TBI (I think). I'm not really researched up on all the details of this, but have seen lots of discussion on this over the last several years. My next conversion will be dropping a 4.0L from an XJ into my 83 J10 Stepside, it currently has the 4.2L/258 I-6 setup. It'll be a pretty straight forward swap... probably won't even have to weld anything. :) I will be using the Aisin Warner 4 speed automatic with the 4.0L and need to reshaft the output to 23 spline or get a different xfr case. When I dropped the 3.8L/th350 into my 67 WAgoneer I spent a large sum of money for the advance adapter to make the th350 mate to the Dana 20... Had I been more aware back then I would have been better off to have changed the xfr case... oh wait... that wouldn't have worked though, the pumpkins were on the wrong side... ;) THe problems multiply in making swaps and changes like this. Mating engine to transmission to transfer case to driveshafts to axles... And then there is the issue of the wiring, for me that's the easy part, for some total paralysis results at the mere mention of it. :) Then you have to deal with the exhaust system... that can be a real rubik's cube, or is it Rube Goldberg? ;) Of course there is cooling and fuel issues, mating the gauges to the different engine, linkages for throttle and shifting... If you guess it'll take two months, better triple that estimate. :) Unless you really focus on it completely. I started my engine swap in July or August and finally rolled the system out in February or March... WHen I decide to take down Superdawg I'll have another rig to drive, and Lord willing a garage to work on him in. That way I can take my time and maybe even do a complete frame off restoration at the same time. Trying to get a rig running before the snow flies hasn't worked for me. :) I got my Jeep going about a week after the last snow... So you have to deal with the Peoples Republik of Kaliforni..... sorry. :( You know, if it weren't for the emizzinazi's here I'd probably be more eager to drop a 6.5L Turbo Diesel in Superdawg... I think I might be able to get it approved up here in Washington... but there is a part of me that fears our government in that they may change the rules and outlaw my rig down the road... If I use a newer model engine of the same make in my Jeep it's a no-brainer anywhere in the world... Keep us posted on the project, whether you got 3.8L, 3.4, 4.3 or even, yuch, get a targetmaster 2.8L... (I'd go to a later model 2.5L first... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/johnsjeeps.jpg SuperDawg, SuperPup (the little wagoneer), and the J3000 ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------- ...be thou neither a sender nor a receiver of attachments... ...if thou usest a microsoft operating system or email program... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 23:26:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: Re: Cherokee V8 Conversion A: Sublim comments ahead: At 08:58 PM 5/12/00 -0700, Michael L. Fletcher wrote: Thanks for mailing me back with youre comments John. I was definitely interested in what you had to say about the potential problems others have had in getting other V8s fit into an XJ especally an '85. (snip) Sounds like my 455 dream is dead, I momentarily forgot about smog problems here in CA. Mike Thanks again for your input. John wrote: The Buick 3.8L with a Turbo on it is a known vette slayer. :) REmember the Grand National ? :) (snip) >You might also want to check the digests for both the xj and fsj lists as there were several comments made about this. =A0 Of course opinions, experience, ideas and comments will vary on topics like this. It's always best to gather all the information you can. I was reading Robert Bryce's piece on the 4.0L stroker motor and he said: A: I was just checking that out to see if they found any gotchas on the stroker, since I was building one myself. >(http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/bryce/stroker/research.asp ) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DBEGIN=A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DThe first step in any project such as this must be research. Some phone calls to companies producing stroker kits indicated that 4.2L (258ci) crankshafts can be and in fact are used. However, beyond this, information became difficult to obtain and was often contradictory. A: They were trying to keep the market to themselves. This setup has been used in Mexico City VAM cars for years already due to the high altitudes. >One source stated that custom rods and pistons must be used with the 258 crankshaft but refused to say why. In fact, I was told I could quote them on this! But finally after many phone calls, and faced with the research outlined below, they admitted it was possible to build a stroker using the right combination of factory parts. However, that was qualified with the statement that by using factory parts, the resulting engine would be a revver, not a torquer. This company will not be named nor mentioned in this article. A: Sounds like the person talking was full of bull! I almost went with some GM rods that would have dropped my compression ratio, but then decided to go LPG. >Other sources suggested that the right combination of factory components should work but couldn't produce details, or say for sure whether it was possible. So this project began by determining what combination of factory, and possibly custom parts, could be used - in theory. I state "in theory" because the actual assembly of components is needed to finally determine whether a combination of parts found on paper will actually work. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=A0END=A0=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D A: All done and put together (now in Alan Cheung's Jeep) >Ideas, experience and memory... it all varies. What may have been a piece of cake for one guy may have kept someone else from even getting started. =A0 In the UNIX world we usually suffix a comment with "ymmv". (your mileage may vary), which basically means, there is no guarantee that what worked for me yesterday will work for you today, or for that matter for me... ;) A: I'm glad I have LOTS of conversion experience under my belt over the years! >So, it is possible to a V8, and has been done many times. However, I think you'll be happier with the v6 setup in an older xj. You might even consider going to the 3.4L Chevy or the 4.3L Chevy as they'll bolt right in and have the TBI (I think). A: If you find a 2.5L GM 4 banger Eagle or Concord 904 trans (not the later 2.5L Jeep) you can build it to take the 4.3L and just change motor mounts and accessories to bolt it in, along with the wiring redo.. >I'm not really researched up on all the details of this, but have seen lots of discussion on this over the last several years. My next conversion will be dropping a 4.0L from an XJ into my 83 J10 Stepside, it currently has the 4.2L/258 I-6 setup. It'll be a pretty straight forward swap... probably won't even have to weld anything. :) I will be using the Aisin Warner 4 speed automatic with the 4.0L and need to reshaft the output to 23 spline or get a different xfr case. A: I checked out a lot of tranny shops, and so far only the guys back east have the right one. Out here they tried to sell me a Toyota 23 spline AW4 out, which is considerably different and hollow! A NP242 would work okay, but you'll need either a SYE (slip yoke eliminator) or different rear driveshaft with slip yoke. The trans mount bracket on the SJ will need superficial mods to work (I'll post that later), and I definitely suggest the Energy Suspension motor (2.1102G) and trans (3.1108G) mounts. The exhaust will need doing as well, due to the 4.0L header being used. >When I dropped the 3.8L/th350 into my 67 WAgoneer I spent a large sum of money for the advance adapter to make the th350 mate to the Dana 20... Had I been more aware back then I would have been better off to have changed the xfr case... oh wait... that wouldn't have worked though, the pumpkins were on the wrong side... ;) A: I would have used a Buick TH400 to the QT! >THe problems multiply in making swaps and changes like this. Mating engine to transmission to transfer case to driveshafts to axles... And then there is the issue of the wiring, for me that's the easy part, for some total paralysis results at the mere mention of it. :) A: Fortunately, even though a car fell on my head, I still do well enough in this area to get by, although I'd be hard pressed to build my own ground up EFI like I did in '80 for my Mazda RX2 with R150 twin turbo race car, and a Toyota 3KC MPFI. >Then you have to deal with the exhaust system... that can be a real rubik's cube, or is it Rube Goldberg? ;) Of course there is cooling and fuel issues, mating the gauges to the different engine, linkages for throttle and shifting... A: A 3 core 6 cyl rad will be essential for my stroker (got any ideas where from John?) and the trans linkage will be on the fly (I'm using the linkage from the FSJ transfercase floor shiter I was going to put in the Eagle) >If you guess it'll take two months, better triple that estimate. :) Unless you really focus on it completely. =A0 I started my engine swap in July or August and finally rolled the system out in February or March... A: I plan to roll by the end of June or early July, and go to the Ocean Shores AMC/ Jeep meet end of July. The only thing that will take me some time I figure is the AW4 computer controller harness. I got the AW4 ATSG rebuild book the other day, but I need a copy of the trans control harness and other info (Hey John! Wanna download and print it for me?) >WHen I decide to take down Superdawg I'll have another rig to drive, and Lord willing a garage to work on him in. That way I can take my time and maybe even do a complete frame off restoration at the same time. A: Maybe I can do the bodylift on your cab after I get rid of my house (if you're not already done). Still didn't get to the linkage, but I'll look in a few minutes. Picked up my trailer frame today. Takes the same tires as my Jeep! ) >Trying to get a rig running before the snow flies hasn't worked for me. :) I got my Jeep going about a week after the last snow... A: Sure way to make it snow or have a monsoon is for me to take apart my only set of wheels! (snip) >Keep us posted on the project, whether you got 3.8L, 3.4, 4.3 or even, yuch, get a targetmaster 2.8L... (I'd go to a later model 2.5L first... ;) john A: Go to a TJ 2.5L with all the EFI, but the bellhousing may not be the same pattern. (2.5L GM is same as Chev V8, and early AMC 4 banger was same as 2.8L, and late 2.5L is same as 4.0L, IIRC) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 02:52:09 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: Black Cherry Hey John, Go here to see Black Cherry on a FSJ. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 02:57:40 EDT From: Brazzadog-at-aol.com Subject: fsj: TH400 dipstick I saw that Summit has a chrome TH400 dipstick tube for about $25. Anybody got any opinions on whether it would be a bolt on replacement for those on an FSJ? Ben Williams '71 Wagoneer '78 F-250 4x4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:59:46 -0400 From: "Ray Drouillard" Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: SUVs bad > > I saw on the news last night that Ford (Expedition maker) says that > > SUVs are dangerous to small cars and bad for the environment. > > > > Walls and trees are also dangerous to small cars. Let's ban > them!!! :-) Trees are dangerous to XJs too. Just ask John M! :-P Ray ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:09:24 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: [1FSJ] Re: SUVs bad At 12:59 PM 5/13/00 -0400, Ray Drouillard wrote: >> > I saw on the news last night that Ford (Expedition maker) says that >> > SUVs are dangerous to small cars and bad for the environment. >> > >> Walls and trees are also dangerous to small cars. Let's ban >> them!!! :-) > >Trees are dangerous to XJs too. Just ask John M! :-P >>Ray yeah. and "snohomish" roads are dangerous too... (snohomish, an old indian word meaning bad roads with no shoulders... ;) My tires never left the "road", besides, that tree jumped right out in front of me... minus one tree... :) long live my "suv"... 201,500 miles and going... ;) john - ------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.WAGONEERS.com/johnsjeeps.jpg SuperDawg, SuperPup (the little wagoneer), and the J3000 ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... ------- ...be thou neither a sender nor a receiver of attachments... ...if thou usest a microsoft operating system or email program... ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:17:12 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: What's a T5 cost? Just got back from getting my bearing set pressed on the axle. Now I get to put it on... While out, I stopped by a tranny shop in pursuit of info on my long smouldering TKO into an MJ project... Basically I came up with about 17" from front of gear box to shifter location.... Now I have to go out and check the old setup, but anyway, he says he can get me on Monday morning a brand new World Class T5 tranny for $600.00. near Memphis. Good, Bad, Average? Whats the concensus? ...crap, I wasn't really working on that project right now.... grumble... ...mumble...now where's that Visa card?... mumble... Steve aka JeepNut - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:23:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Carnuck-at-webtv.net (James Blair) Subject: Re: fsj: What's a T5 cost? A: As long as it's really a world class, and not the 4 banger turbo one, that's a steal! You will still need to swap the output shaft and tailhousing to fit a Jeep T5 (one from an Eagle will work) Steve wrote: Just got back from getting my bearing set pressed on the axle. Now I get to put it on... While out, I stopped by a tranny shop in pursuit of info on my long smouldering TKO into an MJ project... Basically I came up with about 17" from front of gear box to shifter location.... Now I have to go out and check the old setup, but anyway, he says he can get me on Monday morning a brand new World Class T5 tranny for $600.00. near Memphis. =A0=A0=A0=A0Good, Bad, Average? Whats the concensus? =A0 ...crap, I wasn't really working on that project right now.... grumble... ...mumble...now where's that Visa card?... mumble... =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Steve =A0 aka =A0 JeepNut - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JimBlair, Seattle,WA 1983 4.2L Chero 4dr http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html Now appearing on allexperts.com Pics: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=3D13998&Auth=3Dfalse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 16:07:35 -0400 From: "B. COLUCCI" Subject: fsj: Sw Ohio 2000 FSJ Fest - A Big Hit Greetings to The FSJ World! Friday night the FSJ faithful descended on the Admiral's Headquarters for the SW Ohio 2000 FSJ Fest. We had at least parts of 3 FSJ's in attendance, (I'll explain that one in a minute.) and 4 hardy FSJ wrenchers. John the Utah Mail Man came armed with camera, and many stories of his 7 FSJ's that he has collected; all in various states of disrepair. Soon he hopes to fabricate a true Cherokee four door. Although he says it will not be the first; it is still a task worthy of conquest. Dr. Sam from here in Dayton drove his shiny late model XJ; but did bring his FSJ with him to the gathering; at least what is left of it, after the fire. So he proudly showed off his red, white, and blue hub cover. It brings him fond memories of days gone by. Then also from Dayton, Carl the bird shooter drove his mid 80's sportsman styled rig. THis beast has a great running engine in need of some minor adjustment, mated to the heavy duty towing package. Carl is in the process of transplanting a 77 front grill and bezel assembly to give the rig just the right look with that sharks tooth grill. This way when he takes his rig to the woods on a hunting trip, the wild-life will know he means business. Last but not least it was my privilege to be able to display Lady Susan's USS GW for all to see. This proved helpful to us for comparison purposes when checking the plumbing of Carl's air pump. My efforts to rectify the botched plumbing back to stock on the USS GW proved to be a valuable model. Much fun and FSJ spirit was shared by all. A lot of film was spent from our various cameras. So Mr. Meister should have all sorts of interesting pics for his site soon. Oh, and I almost forgot the official ceremonial toast of all good auto restoration buffs. We broke out a 6 pack of iced down YooHoo. The toast definitely confirmed it was a real FSJ group get together. I would encourage everybody to take the time when traveling to meet up with other members of the group. It is a way to really get to know the people behind the E-Mail. Plus you get to see some really cool rigs that give you ideas on how to improve your own. Until The Next Dimension, Admiral "Coluch." Starfleet Headquarters Ohio Post End Transmission........................................ ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #852 *************************