From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Wed Jun 14 14:25:21 2000 From: fsj-digest fsj-digest Wednesday, June 14 2000 Volume 01 : Number 893 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: fsj: re: sleepy wag / lug nuts Re: fsj: Re: 1991 Grand Wagoneer Re: fsj: Re: What's The Old Fellow Attempting To Pull? Re: fsj: RE: Whats wrong with this hypo? fsj: re: shift levers and xfr cases Re: fsj: re: sleepy wag / lug nuts fsj: Monitor fuel flow? Re: [fsj: Waggie drops dead] Re: fsj: Saga of the Narcoleptic Wagoneer Re: fsj: RE: Which Case Is It? Re: fsj: RE: Whats wrong with this hypo? Re: fsj: re: shift levers and xfr cases fsj: Re: FSj axles Re:fsj:RE: Whats wrong with this hypo Re: fsj: RE: Which Case Is It? FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:54:57 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: re: sleepy wag / lug nuts On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, fsj-digest wrote: >-->fsj-digest Tuesday, June 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 892 >--> fsj: Saga of the Narcoleptic Wagoneer I'd quit replacing components and systematically go through your electrical system, one wire at a time. I'd pull every connector apart, spray in Amsoil MP, Electrical Contact cleaner or even WD-40 and reconnect them. Check every wire for rubbing and contact with sharp objects. I'd tie wrap them up. I'd spray your choice of spray stuff into ignition switch and rotate. My guess is you have a loose connection, probably under the hood... could be a corroded connector, or even a broken wire... Something ain't right. I can't tell you have many hours I've spent in my life troubleshooting symptoms like this in everything from flashlights through the president's red phone... :) Intermittent stuff is a pain. So, take a deep breath, quit chasing gremlins and systematically go through all the wiring associated with the ignition and starter. I'll be covering this in the wiring series I'm writing in FSJ Magazine... and it'll also be on my server at: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Wiring Please, don't tear apart your distributer... just go through all the wiring first... If that doesn't fix it, then suspect the other stuff... If it is a problem with those components it will be heat related. Either get a can of coldshot, or use a heat gun (hairdryer even) to test various systems. This is an old TV repairman trick... and since I'm an old TV repairman I guess I can share it... rofl... ;) After owning 11 FSJ's, I think that's the total??? anyway, it'll be the wiring, a loose or corroded connection or a bad ignition switch... IN FACT, memory just came through... I read a "war story" in a mechanics journal years ago about a similar case, YES, it was the ignition switch that caused the problem in that case! The owner kept having the car fail, but the mechanic could NEVER reproduce it... the guy replaced everything in the car electronic, including the wiring harness!!! The guy finally was gonna give up, and finally had the customer drive the car while he was in it... so the guy whips out his keys... the key ring must have had about a hundred keys on it, along with various doodads... once the mechanic saw that, and then experienced the engine die out on the test run he knew it was the ignition switch. He replaced it and convinced the owner to use a key chain with a detachable section, and the problem was solved. (story "enhanced" by memory, if any one knows the true story, shhhhh... ;) john >--> Re: fsj: lugnuts... I doubt my 5'7" and 170 or so (add 10 lbs) would do much damage if I stood on a four way spinner... maybe bend the spinner wrench... ;) I've yet to break a stud off of a vehicle... the wrenches or sockets always failed first. ;) john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:53:56 -0500 From: paul stelzig Subject: Re: fsj: Re: 1991 Grand Wagoneer There's a article on the trail ride where I did it at this link http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/trail/report/mn/chucks/? The broken steering knuckle and axle shaft where due to lack of timely maintenance. ball joint failure. I carry spare ball joints and a pressing tool in the jeep now. john wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, paul stelzig wrote: > > >-->I rolled mine on to it's side, but I've got a sprung over front end for about > >-->6" lift. And I still had to tilt to at least 45 degrees before it went over. > > any pictures? > didn't go turtle though... will have to create a special section. :) > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:20:29 -0700 From: Wes Molsberry Subject: Re: fsj: Re: What's The Old Fellow Attempting To Pull? My NP-208 has it on the Floor. With the travel of that 2nd shifter lever, I can't imagine it being a pull-tab thingie. Yes John, conventional cane just to the left of the shifter on a 4 speed. Brad Seevers wrote: > > my np208 has a lever on the floor, not the little pulltab type thing next > > to the seat... did they run the 208's with the np219 style levers? > > Hmm... I thought so! I'll check the parts manual. I thought the 208s had > a pulltab type thing very similar to the 219 style. What do > others with the 208s have? > > By lever, do you mean something like a conventional shift cane? > > > >--> > > >-->-bread > > > > is it lunch time? rofl... > > Man, I'm always misspelling my name! I have even misspelled my name on > papers submitted to journals! I think it is right on my wedding certificate. > > -brad > > (did I get it right this time?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:14:23 -0700 From: Wes Molsberry Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Whats wrong with this hypo? This may sound a little stupid, but I believe if you look at a tag soldered on one of the valve covers (maybe the drivers side one), you'll see a number. That tells the year of the engine. I doubt if they check that closely, though. Most of those folks just look at the stickers on the air cleaner, see that the EGR is working, look for the AirGuard system, then stick in the sniffer. I had to add ALL of the smog stuff to Brutus (1980 narrow track Cherokee), when I lived in Taxifornia. I live in Josephine County in Southern Oregon now. No smog checks (yet). JeepNut wrote: > Just curious as I haven't gotten into things this deep, but how would they > know if the engine was a '77 or '55? Do they really "look up numbers" for every > stinkin car in California??? > And what about changing VIN numbers? What do you do, just tell them you just > bought a '74 and use the VIN from a '74 on the truck? Then it's registered > forever more as a '74? > JeepNut ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:24:05 -0700 (PDT) From: john Subject: fsj: re: shift levers and xfr cases On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Wes Molsberry wrote: >-->My NP-208 has it on the Floor. With the travel of that 2nd shifter lever, I can't >-->imagine it being a pull-tab thingie. Yes John, conventional cane just to the left >-->of the shifter on a 4 speed. then I'm even more confused. :) I may have to go out and pester the guy... :) It can't be an NP219, and it's not likely it's an np229 because I didn't see the 2wd/4wd switch... but it's got the same 4h/4l lever you'd expect from either one of those. It does have the AT with the shifter on the column... john >--> >-->Brad Seevers wrote: >--> >-->> > my np208 has a lever on the floor, not the little pulltab type thing next >-->> > to the seat... did they run the 208's with the np219 style levers? >-->> >-->> Hmm... I thought so! I'll check the parts manual. I thought the 208s had >-->> a pulltab type thing very similar to the 219 style. What do >-->> others with the 208s have? >-->> >-->> By lever, do you mean something like a conventional shift cane? >-->> >-->> > >--> >-->> > >-->-bread >-->> > >-->> > is it lunch time? rofl... >-->> >-->> Man, I'm always misspelling my name! I have even misspelled my name on >-->> papers submitted to journals! I think it is right on my wedding certificate. >-->> >-->> -brad >-->> >-->> (did I get it right this time?) >--> >--> >--> >--> ---- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- john-at-wagoneers.com **** http://wagoneers.com don't leave life without Jesus, please... Snohomish, Washington USA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:19:31 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: fsj: re: sleepy wag / lug nuts Hi John, Understood. I have replaced the ignition switch already. Although it was an AutoZone switch and is really cheezy compared to the OEM one I pulled out. As a test last night, it started in the driveway, ran for 10sec, shut down. Started back up after doing nothing but waiting for 30sec. Put it in the carport and it kept running, so I got under there and pulled that switch up and down the column, but couldn't kill the engine like that. Weird. (of course, I didn't pull the switch far enough to put it into the "off" position...) But you know, my MJ did something similar a couple of years ago. Though not as frequently. In that case I eventually found it was a fuel pump relay letting go unceremoniously. I don't see any relays in the start/run circuit though on the SJ.... JeepNut john wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, fsj-digest wrote: > >-->fsj-digest Tuesday, June 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 892 > >--> fsj: Saga of the Narcoleptic Wagoneer > > I'd quit replacing components and systematically go through your electrical > system, one wire at a time. I'd pull every connector apart, spray in > Amsoil MP, Electrical Contact cleaner or even WD-40 and reconnect them. > Check every wire for rubbing and contact with sharp objects. I'd tie wrap > them up. I'd spray your choice of spray stuff into ignition switch and rotate. > > My guess is you have a loose connection, probably under the hood... could be > a corroded connector, or even a broken wire... Something ain't right. > > I can't tell you have many hours I've spent in my life troubleshooting symptoms > like this in everything from flashlights through the president's red phone... :) > Intermittent stuff is a pain. > > So, take a deep breath, quit chasing gremlins and systematically go through > all the wiring associated with the ignition and starter. > > I'll be covering this in the wiring series I'm writing in FSJ Magazine... and > it'll also be on my server at: http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Wiring > > Please, don't tear apart your distributer... just go through all the wiring > first... If that doesn't fix it, then suspect the other stuff... If it > is a problem with those components it will be heat related. Either get a > can of coldshot, or use a heat gun (hairdryer even) to test various systems. > This is an old TV repairman trick... and since I'm an old TV repairman I > guess I can share it... rofl... ;) > > After owning 11 FSJ's, I think that's the total??? anyway, it'll be the wiring, > a loose or corroded connection or a bad ignition switch... IN FACT, memory > just came through... I read a "war story" in a mechanics journal years ago > about a similar case, YES, it was the ignition switch that caused the problem > in that case! The owner kept having the car fail, but the mechanic could NEVER > reproduce it... the guy replaced everything in the car electronic, including > the wiring harness!!! The guy finally was gonna give up, and finally had > the customer drive the car while he was in it... so the guy whips out his > keys... the key ring must have had about a hundred keys on it, along with > various doodads... once the mechanic saw that, and then experienced the > engine die out on the test run he knew it was the ignition switch. He > replaced it and convinced the owner to use a key chain with a detachable > section, and the problem was solved. (story "enhanced" by memory, if any > one knows the true story, shhhhh... ;) > > john > > >--> Re: fsj: lugnuts... > > I doubt my 5'7" and 170 or so (add 10 lbs) would do much damage if I stood > on a four way spinner... maybe bend the spinner wrench... ;) I've yet > to break a stud off of a vehicle... the wrenches or sockets always failed first. ;) > > john - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:26:43 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: fsj: Monitor fuel flow? Msrs. Blair and UrbFarmer have offered some interesting ideas about monitoring systems. I was thinking along those lines as well. Anyone have an inexpensive/good idea about how to monitor fuel flow remotely? I'd kind of like to see for sure if the carb could be getting starved prior to shutdown. Thinking about putting some kind of observation tube between the fuel filter and the carb. Of course this would be a temporary re-routing of the hoses just so I could see the fuel flow... I was thinking about one of those antifreeze tester gizmos. I could watch the balls moving in the tube to see flow, but wondered if the gasoline would disolve the balls? Any other ideas? JeepNut - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:33:04 -0500 From: JeepNut Subject: Re: [fsj: Waggie drops dead] Hi Mr. Shimnick, Yeppers, new ignition switch, new ECU, coil, etc. Nearly every hardware piece in the starting/charging system. Still have yet to put in the pickup coil in the distributor. I have it bought, just haven't been able to put it in yet.... Nice idea about the timing light however, good useful tip. I am getting close to taking it somewhere for diags, but living in Memphis puts me at a distinct disadvantage. I've been asking for a week and have not found ONE person who will recommend an electrics shop in town. Including several mechanics. They all suggest their own dealership... When told I am looking SPECIFICALLY for an electrics guy, they repeat themselves. Life in the south... it's just barely living.... JeepNut Michael Shimniok wrote: > JeepNut wrote: > > I'm thinking it's possessed. > > I'm thinking you're right. :) > > That is a lot of bizzare behavior. Just the kind that > bad connections cause. It's always easier when there's > a discernable pattern. IIWY I'd go over every blasted > ignition connection (dist, ign module, coil, cap, plug > wires, firewall, alternator, starter solenoid, battery, > ign switch, etc) and make absolutely sure all are tight > and uncorroded and that the plug connectors have > dielectric goop on 'em. And make sure all your ground > wires are connected very well, too. > > It would also be worth visually inspecting all related > wires or checking resistance to see if there are any > broken, burnt, messed-up wires manifested by > intermittent shorts/opens in the wires. You might also > consider installing a new ignition switch (above the > steering column near the firewall) or at least removing > and inspecting/testing the existing one for erratic > connections caused by corosion, etc. > > I'd also consider running timing light with the wires > into the cabin or onto the hood and taping a timing > lite in place to watch spark and see what happens > in those cases where it dies and won't restart. > > I had a bad pickup coil once (in a new Napa reman > distributor) which would fail after the vehicle warmed > up and would stay dead for increasing periods of time > (first a few minutes, a few months later, 45 minutes). > So that is certainly suspect in a case where the vehicle > dies and won't restart. Of course, coil and ignition > module are possibilities too. > > These kinds of problems demand very scientific, > methodical approaches to solve quickly and permanently. > I prefer to solve these problems myself because I'm > willing to take the time required to diagnose and then > ensure I'm right, whereas only the best shops can make > that claim. However, you might consider having someone > run it on a diagnostic machine. Maybe something will > turn up. > > Start to ask yourself questions about symptoms and > conditions. Are there any common conditions of the > vehicle or the environment or the driving style or > anything else that correspond to failure? Study the > symptoms in detail and perhaps a pattern will turn up. > > You'll figure it out eventually. Keep us posted. > > Michael > > --- > Michael E. Shimniok - KC0EKI - Michael.Shimniok-at-usa.net > "For every complex problem, there is a solution that > is simple, neat, and wrong." - H. L. Menken > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- '87 Street Comanche #24/100 '88 Grand Wagoneer ...and they say there's only one... '92 Cherokee - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:22:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: Saga of the Narcoleptic Wagoneer Wow, $95 for the NAPA ECU? Thats almost enough to buy an MSD 6A ignition module. $49 for the AutoZone also sounds expensive. What brand is the AutoZone ECU? The last ECU I bought (as a spare because it was cheep) was $11 new. - -brad JeepNut writes: > Todays adventure follows: > I started it this morning after replacing the coil clip and it ran > for about 3 minutes, then died. > I walked back over to it and did nothing but switch the connections from > the $49.00 AutoZone ECU to the $95.00 NAPA ECU and it fired right up > again... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:31:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Which Case Is It? Jim, The NP219 was at least an 80-82. My 82 manuals have it in them. I have an 83 manual also and I will try to remember to check it too. I have an 82 wag with a 219. Also, I think you are thinking about the NP203 t-case. It is a full time t-case. A 79 dodge should have had a NP203 and not an NP205. An 80 would have had the NP205 and 72 or 73 and earlier should have the NP205. The NP205 is a part time gear driver case. The NP203 is a full time chain driven (but with a cast iron case) t-case. - -brad Jim writes: > A: The NP219 was '80/'81 only (although a few have shown up in '82s, the > manual says '80-'81) The NP205 (I think that's the one) was a full time, > with hubs, and had hi/lo like a NP219. I checked one out in a '79 Dodge > 3/4 ton at the Monroe fest> > > Utah John wrote: > Brian, John, and all: I believe the NP219 was only offered from '80 to > '83, with A/T only, for all models except the J20. The NP 208 was > offered for all models from '80 to '87. > Joe Schaefer knows this stuff better than I do, maybe check with him? > Utah John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:35:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Whats wrong with this hypo? Wes, You are in Grants Pass aren't you? Better stay put. Medford/Ashland have smog checks! - -brad Wes writes: > This may sound a little stupid, but I believe if you look at a tag soldered on one of > the valve covers (maybe the drivers side one), you'll see a number. That tells the > year of the engine. I doubt if they check that closely, though. Most of those folks > just look at the stickers on the air cleaner, see that the EGR is working, look for > the AirGuard system, then stick in the sniffer. I had to add ALL of the smog stuff to > Brutus (1980 narrow track Cherokee), when I lived in Taxifornia. I live in Josephine > County in Southern Oregon now. No smog checks (yet). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:37:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Seevers Subject: Re: fsj: re: shift levers and xfr cases Okay, I keep forgetting to check the parts manual! Wes, do you have an auto or manual transmission? I really think it is an NP208. But a quick check in the parts manual should help clear this up! - -brad John writes: > On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, Wes Molsberry wrote: > > >-->My NP-208 has it on the Floor. With the travel of that 2nd shifter lever, I can't > >-->imagine it being a pull-tab thingie. Yes John, conventional cane just to the left > >-->of the shifter on a 4 speed. > > then I'm even more confused. :) I may have to go out and pester the guy... :) > > It can't be an NP219, and it's not likely it's an np229 because I didn't > see the 2wd/4wd switch... but it's got the same 4h/4l lever you'd expect > from either one of those. It does have the AT with the shifter on > the column... > > john ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:37:20 -0700 From: john Subject: fsj: Re: FSj axles At 09:53 AM 6/14/00 -0400, Bob Mock wrote: >which FSJ's have the D44 front and rear and have the front diff on >the drivers side like the XJ's? I have a friend who just finished >putting a set in his ZJ and now i'm quite interested. > >Bob from 1980 up SJ's have had a dana44 front with the diff on the driver's side. The dana44 rear varies, but seems to have showed up more often 86 and up... mostly model20's in the rear... john - ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.WAGONEERS.com/ ...don't leave life without Jesus, please! Snohomish, WA - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... - ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed Jun 14 12:27:43 2000 From: DSandelands-at-aol.com Subject: Re:fsj:RE: Whats wrong with this hypo Don't know anyone who's ever tried this and I won't either, however, it seems one could buy say a junk '72 with a clean title. Or better yet, just buy a clean '72 title and the corresponding vin tag. No smog check is required on a '72, so no one will ever look at the car. Then simply replace the vin tag on the '77 with the '72 tag and insure and register the car as a '72. No problems with the DMV because they will never know of the swap. Only problem I could see is if your insurance company wanted to inspect the car to determine its value. When I insured my '77 with AAA, I got full coverage with the policy limit being the price I paid for the Chero. AAA did not ask to inspect the car or for any proof of the purchase price. As far as CA smog laws go, all '74 or later cars must get a smog check every two years. You can replace the engine in a '74 or later car with an engine of the same year or later. However, if you replace a '74 engine with say an '80 engine you must install all of the smog controls which orginally came with the '80 engine. On the other hand if your car (or at least title) is pre '74, you can do whatever you please. As a practical matter if you registerd a '77 as pre '74, say a '72, and then dropped a non-smog Chevy 350 into it, it would be forever more a '72. In a message dated 6/13/00 6:10:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jeepnut-at-bellsouth.net writes: << Just curious as I haven't gotten into things this deep, but how would they know if the engine was a '77 or '55? Do they really "look up numbers" for every stinkin car in California??? And what about changing VIN numbers? What do you do, just tell them you just bought a '74 and use the VIN from a '74 on the truck? Then it's registered forever more as a '74? JeepNut >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:00:58 -0600 From: "Kim Smith" Subject: Re: fsj: RE: Which Case Is It? > A: The NP219 was '80/'81 only (although a few have shown up in '82s, the > manual says '80-'81) The NP205 (I think that's the one) was a full time, > with hubs, and had hi/lo like a NP219. I checked one out in a '79 Dodge > 3/4 ton at the Monroe fest> No, that was the NP208. And in Wagoneers with auto trannies, it has the same type of shifter, the one sticking out from under the seat. kim '80 Wagoneer "J0E", 360 v2,T-727,NP219 > > Utah John wrote: > Brian, John, and all: I believe the NP219 was only offered from '80 to > '83, with A/T only, for all models except the J20. The NP 208 was > offered for all models from '80 to '87. > Joe Schaefer knows this stuff better than I do, maybe check with him? > Utah John > > ************************************* > JimBlair, Seattle,WA '83 Cher 4dr, '84 J10 > http://homepages.go.com/~carnuck/carnuck.html > ************************************** > > ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #893 *************************