From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue May 10 10:18:14 2011
From: fsj-digest <owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net>
fsj-digest Tuesday, May 10 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3722
Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps
Brian Colucci <ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net>
Digest Coordinator
Contents:
fsj: reality check on W210
fsj: final update on the W210 - no go
fsj: Snow in May - and driveway space
Re: fsj: Snow in May - and driveway space
fsj: Re: Rhino grille pie plates
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Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 11:02:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: fsj: reality check on W210
so far have gotten outstanding input... both positive and some less than positive. (again, sorry for the off-topic
but discussions like this seem to cross list boundaries and the analytical process likely help folks in a
similiar strait... buying a used car of any model/type requires careful thought and of course input from others...)
so, after looking last night, getting valued input and pricing parts/repairs...
I'm a little hesitant after doing the math...
I believe the car would make it to Chicago and back, but after the demise of my 124 I would want to
verify that the timing chain has been replaced before I leave.
My wife is concerned, and I'm mildly concerned, that the guy was running Veggie Oil through a computerized
kit... the power wasn't exciting on the car... but from what I've read the OM606 NA isn't known for an abundance.
One W210 Diesel owner suggested I get a '98 with a turbo... he loved the car but faced many of the same issues
I've got listed below.
Of course Mike Frank from the Diesel Benz list has the most experience with the W210 in the gas world and seems
to confirm much of what I've listed below and provided some very helpful links to details about the electronics
that are greatly appreciated (and shared here for others). Thanx for all the great links everyone, reading through
them all now.
I'm not frightened as much by electronics issues, other than the cost of the parts... I have some ideas on some
design mods and power filtering that might reduce problems... most electronics issues in automotive environments
have to do with thermal stress and dirty power. Dirty power can be addressed with filters... chokes, caps, etc.
thermal stress by providing air flow... and of course buying the latest version of the electronics from the
dealer often solve most of the problems as well. The other issue is vibration and solder connections... most
early German electronics seem to have failed solder connections, simply reflowing the solder joints seems to
help a lot, at least in the 123 and a little in the 124 world.
Bottom line is I'm not opposed to buying this '97 E300 (W210)... if I can get it for a fair price based on what I've found,
but what's concerning me is the timing chain and leaving on Tuesday morning... and if we don't take it to
Chicago then why not wait for a '98 or '99 to get a turbo... all the W210s will have the same electronic
issues... the OM606 and the 5 speed automatic have great reviews... so it all depends on the actual car and
it's electronics.
What's interesting is that my wife also expressed the fact that she liked the way our 124 looked... So I'm
beginning to think that I may make a low offer on this car... dealer suggested around $3500, I was initially
thinking $4500 (seller is asking $6k), but after looking at the details below, $3500 seems a safer bet, unless
the timing chain was done less than 100k ago... but one thing comes to mind as I heard the engine idle...
that low in the engine rattle like I heard on my 124 before its demise and what I heard on paul's 124,
but not on bruce's after he had his chain replaced... so my guess is the chain is original and before I
drive 4,500 miles it's going to be replaced... which means unless I make some quick phone calls and do
some serious wheeling-dealing and begging a shop to do the work, it ain't gonna happen before we leave on
Tuesday... I know my TDI is ready to roll...not as nice, not as comfortable but I have every confidence in
it from tires to the top of the antenna... oh yeah, that's the other thing... the Michelin's have maybe
30% tread left... that's another $400-600 if the lug nuts don't break on removal... :)
so, here's the detailed list...
my review last night identified a few potential problems and a couple that have to be dealt with:
must be dealt with:
- -------------------
timing chain est. $1500 (around $500 for parts, a grand labor) - phil smart recommends immediately...
egr valve est. $ 800 (part wholesale is 600, can find one for $250 aftermarket, but can also be blocked???)
potential issues:
- -------------------
climate control display est. $1000 (part wholesale is 757, retail 946 - aftermarket 835))
rack assembly (steering heavy) est $1500 (part wholesale is 1140, plus core)
glow plugs retail $47ea/whs 33 - problem is glow plugs can break upon removal. not good...
issues identified of little or no concern right now:
- --------------------
body / chassis rust - ha! not a spot anywhere... see sig file about mold... ;)
lug nuts - can break off and be a pain - will replace and use anti-seize
radio issues - had to enter code... could just be from sitting... seemed ok... aftermarket in future...
word from owners is that it's great to drive, sadly, one has even been crash tested by list member... with good results...
word from the streets is 38mpg is a myth... expect 31 mpg. - which is interesting... my '91 300D actually
got 39.75 mpg ONCE... cruising I-5 from the bay to seattle only saw mid-30's... average for life right at 30mpg.
- ---------------------------------
next step... call the guy, ask about the timing chain... describe what I've found and see if he'd consider $3500
then plan on spending another $1500 to bring it up to snuff, maybe by Tuesday morning... let's see, that would
be $5k for it... book is right in that ballbark... he's asking $6k but hasn't been able to sell it... hmmm, wonder
why... ;)
Folks... once again your input, advice and wisdom is greatly appreciated... my guess is I'll be driving my
Jetta to Chi-town... but who knows... stranger things have happened... the only thing keeping me from hoping
in that E300 right now and heading east is that timing chain...
there is a '96 on CL for almost $8k with a lot fewer miles... that's the first year of the W210 and even the
parts guy at Phil Smart seemed to think avoiding the first year of a model was a good plan. These cars are
out there and don't move really fast... the public, surprisingly, seems to be wary of these units...
guess it's all an education process... I've learned a lot in less than 24 hrs thanx to my friends on the internet.
here's the car in question:
http://johnmeister.com/DieselBenz/CARS/1997-E300-Diesel/ALL.html
here's most of the links provided:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/e-class-w210-1995/
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/mercedes-benz/e-class-saloon-1995.aspx
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=w210+projector&_sacat=See-All-Categories
http://www.eclassbenz.com/2010/02/how-to-diagnose-air-conditioning-malfunctions/
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1384396-automatic-climate-control-diagnostic-trouble-code.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w210-e-class/1166514-climate-control-diagnostic-tool.html
http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/stats.shtml
http://www.google.com/search?q=OM606+reliability&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
http://www.mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w124/375331-w124-vs-w210-reliability.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=231546
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=122029
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=155479
bless you all for your patience with my inquiries, research and slightly off-topic activity...and
of course for your valued input...
after typing all this the "fleece" test will be the guy's acceptance of a $3500 offer... I really don't
know which way he'll go... if I were him and knew what was going on I'd likely take it... but if I consider
that I'll be offering just slightly more than half of what he is asking, I might get a less than
enthusiastic/postive response...
shields up... dialing... :)
john
-----
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-o|||||o-
Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold
http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461
http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 20:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com>
Subject: fsj: final update on the W210 - no go
the seller couldn't find the records on the timing chain...
I'm nervous because I heard the same sound my '91 300D was making before it gave up the ghost...
dealer said change at 100k on the OM606 to be safe (wisdom says 200-250k on the OM602)
his bottom price is $5800, he was asking $6k... and my math shows nearly $3k of likely work, tires, etc...
The MB dealer parts manager was thinking $3500, initially I was thinking $4500 BEFORE I thought of the timing chain...
however, would have given $5000 some thought... so we'll keep looking when we get back from Chicago...
the research has overcome my fear and dread of the W210s... know a lot more about what to look for... and we'll
keep our eyes open for another W124 as well. the rav4 is a nice little rig so we're not suffering... :)
but, it looks like the Jetta TDI is going to get a mileage run next week... just got new amsoil filters in the mail... going
to clean it up, wax it, pump up the tires, remove unnecessary weight, etc... we'll see...
expecting at least 48, have seen 52... both in the mountains... WHAT will this thing do on LEVEL ground??? could we see 60???
(not likely with me driving unless there is a really, really long downhill run with a great tailwind...)
thanx again for the input and advice, always appreciated.
john
-----
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-o|||||o-
Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps don't rust, they mold
http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461
http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 00:43:28 -0400
From: Mark Wallace <wallacem7-at-aol.com>
Subject: fsj: Snow in May - and driveway space
Senior Silva - that is a nice classic Wagoneer! Some pics of the engine and
interior would be cool to see. Looks like you have a decent space as well.
Welcome to the list.
Landon - i'd pick up the 81 Wag. it'll likely be an NP 219 full time T-case.
The carpet has likely faded and probably just looks orange now. My carpet
(what's left of it) is sort of an orangey brown. The 70 Grand Prix I am
working on the brown carpet has turned green in the UV. UV attacks different
color dyes differently. Look under the seats for a hint of the old color. I am
trying to thin my fleet right now...selling the newest vehicle in the fleet. I
have enough space, but not enough time or money.
It snowed over the weekend so I didn't get my engine out. I am playing with
cars tomorrow so maybe it comes out tomorrow. We'll see. It is now in the 70s.
I'll try to post some pics.
I have an old boss who is still a friend who on three separate occasions has
brought home project cars without informing his wife before hand. Some of the
time keeping them a secret for years. (what's one more car in the barn?)
Although one time he bought a bunch of parts that were a car and the ratty
flatbed trailer of the "delivery company" came when he wasn't home and knocked
on the door and asked his very pregnant wife where to put the "car"... I think
by that point in time he wasn't really even in that much trouble because that
is what she expects. I tell every girl I date that I have a car habit. I
explain that some guys like cocaine, and some guys like to gamble, some guys
like cigarettes, some guys like to drink too much, some guys continue to chase
other women, and that my bad habit is cars. I explain that it is cheaper and
better for you than all those other habits.
Mark Wallace
81 Wag
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 11:59:28 -0300
From: Ernesto Silva <erniesilva-at-gmail.com>
Subject: Re: fsj: Snow in May - and driveway space
Senior Wallace, thanks for the welcome message, I sent my FSJ to the
mechanic to get the water pump repaired, it leaks by the shaft joint
and some other places, apparently it's a common issue on 4-203 Perkins
diesel engines.
I hate to send it to the mechanic because I like to repair it myself,
but I don't have the time to do it and I need it working by the
weekend (I hope the mechanic doesn't sleep on it).
I'll take some pictures of the engine and the interior to post them in
flickr, I may also take some outdoor pictures and accept John's
offering to publish them on wagoneers.com.
Ernesto,
'64 Wag.
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Mark Wallace <wallacem7-at-aol.com> wrote:
> Senior Silva - that is a nice classic Wagoneer! Some pics of the engine
and
> interior would be cool to see. Looks like you have a decent space as well.
> Welcome to the list.
>
> Landon - i'd pick up the 81 Wag. it'll likely be an NP 219 full time
T-case.
> The carpet has likely faded and probably just looks orange now. My carpet
> (what's left of it) is sort of an orangey brown. The 70 Grand Prix I am
> working on the brown carpet has turned green in the UV. UV attacks
different
> color dyes differently. Look under the seats for a hint of the old color. I
am
> trying to thin my fleet right now...selling the newest vehicle in the fleet.
I
> have enough space, but not enough time or money.
>
> It snowed over the weekend so I didn't get my engine out. I am playing with
> cars tomorrow so maybe it comes out tomorrow. We'll see. It is now in the
70s.
> I'll try to post some pics.
>
> I have an old boss who is still a friend who on three separate occasions
has
> brought home project cars without informing his wife before hand. Some of
the
> time keeping them a secret for years. (what's one more car in the barn?)
> Although one time he bought a bunch of parts that were a car and the ratty
> flatbed trailer of the "delivery company" came when he wasn't home and
knocked
> on the door and asked his very pregnant wife where to put the "car"... I
think
> by that point in time he wasn't really even in that much trouble because
that
> is what she expects. I tell every girl I date that I have a car habit. I
> explain that some guys like cocaine, and some guys like to gamble, some
guys
> like cigarettes, some guys like to drink too much, some guys continue to
chase
> other women, and that my bad habit is cars. I explain that it is cheaper
and
> better for you than all those other habits.
>
> Mark Wallace
> 81 Wag
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:17:10 +0000
From: john <fullsizejeeps-at-gmail.com>
Subject: fsj: Re: Rhino grille pie plates
Yes, they attach to the round headlight bucket, you might be able to find a substitute. I bought mine used from olympic 4x4.
- ------Original Message------
From: Floyd Little
To: J
Subject: Rhino grille pie plates
Sent: May 10, 2011 09:34
John
A while back I read somewhere about "pie plates" rings that are installed in the front end sheet metal of an FSJ.
Can't seem to find them again, do you know anything about them?
I'm getting itchy to start on my 71 Jtruck
Thanks
Floyd
Sent from my iPhone
*** john at http://wagoneers.com ***
------------------------------
End of fsj-digest V1 #3722
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