From owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net Tue Jul 26 06:11:05 2011 From: fsj-digest <owner-fsj-digest-at-digest.net> fsj-digest Tuesday, July 26 2011 Volume 01 : Number 3753 Forum for Discussion of Full Sized SJ Series Jeeps Brian Colucci <ABCvoice-at-worldnet.att.net> Digest Coordinator Contents: Re: fsj: Transmissions and orange peel Re: fsj: Transmissions and orange peel fsj: Steering box adjustment Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment fsj: Re: Grand wagoneer 90 transfer case issue Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment fsj: RE: Re: Grand wagoneer 90 transfer case issue FSJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeeps/fsj/ Send submissions to fsj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to fsj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to fsj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:35:28 -0700 From: Jim Blair <carnuck-at-hotmail.com> Subject: Re: fsj: Transmissions and orange peel I had a bad experience with them back in the '70s. I used to work there! They ripped off a little old lady with a '65 Mustang (all she needed was a trans mount because it would move and the car couldn't start unless she put it in park. They "rebuilt" the trans with a can of spraypaint!) and I was so disgusted I walked out and filed a complaint. Shop was shut down not long after that, but I got blackballed as a mechanic because of it. I ended up opening my own shop, which by the time it was successful, cost me my marriage due to working so much. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 From: Mark Wallace <wallacem7-at-aol.com> Subject: fsj: Transmissions and orange peel Yikes, Aamco....I had a bad experience with them back in the mid 90s. So bad that my next transmission I rebuilt myself. A Torqueflyte isn't actually all that hard to rebuild. The rotating assembly is really pretty simple. If I recall the valve body has about 105 parts...that one you have to pay a lot of attention to the manual. I am a big fan of maintaining transmissions. Change the fluid and filter and adjust the bands on a regular basis and the transmission should last pretty well. Even Chrysler transmissions that are in a lot of cases under-spec'ed for the job do just fine with good maintenance. Orange peel on an unfinished project on craigslist? What is the world coming to? I tell you what. Bring it by the house and I will give it a no expense spared mirror finish paint job. It'll cost you ten grand, and I won't make much money on the job, but it'll be nice. Tomorrow I am picking up my paint from the paint store. I am starting with two quarts of Nason (DuPont's low cost brand). I was less that $150 out the door at the DuPont jobber (he's also a friend so he cuts me good deals) If I wanted to go with DuPont's high end stuff it would have cost me $800. I'll be leaving some shine on the table, but it will be a lot better than it was. I have been shooting paint a couple of times a week lately so I am in good practice. I am happy that my engine is clean enough to paint...spent some time on it with the simple green, a toothbrush and the pressure washer. I pulled out all the old freeze plugs today and I am picking up the new freeze plugs tomorrow. After the freeze plugs are in and the engine is in paint the engine is done. I simple greened and pressure washed the frame as well today. Once the engine is done I will sandblast and paint that. Then comes the floors. Mark Wallace 81 Wag ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:46:01 +0000 From: john <fullsizejeeps-at-gmail.com> Subject: Re: fsj: Transmissions and orange peel You'd think that "corporate policies" and the fear of being caught would restrict mankind's sinful nature in situations like this. But for some reason they can still justify their misdeeds and blame someone else. It's sad that these things happen and that so many people are unaware that they have been wronged. That's why were here on this list, to share information and do reality checks. There is power in knowledge, but it must be wisely applied. __john_at_http://wagoneers.com__ - -----Original Message----- From: Jim Blair <carnuck-at-hotmail.com> Sender: owner-fsj-at-digest.net Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:35:28 To: local Jeep list<fsj-at-digest.net> Reply-To: Jim Blair <carnuck-at-hotmail.com>Subject: Re: fsj: Transmissions and orange peel I had a bad experience with them back in the '70s. I used to work there! They ripped off a little old lady with a '65 Mustang (all she needed was a trans mount because it would move and the car couldn't start unless she put it in park. They "rebuilt" the trans with a can of spraypaint!) and I was so disgusted I walked out and filed a complaint. Shop was shut down not long after that, but I got blackballed as a mechanic because of it. I ended up opening my own shop, which by the time it was successful, cost me my marriage due to working so much. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 From: Mark Wallace <wallacem7-at-aol.com> Subject: fsj: Transmissions and orange peel Yikes, Aamco....I had a bad experience with them back in the mid 90s. So bad that my next transmission I rebuilt myself. A Torqueflyte isn't actually all that hard to rebuild. The rotating assembly is really pretty simple. If I recall the valve body has about 105 parts...that one you have to pay a lot of attention to the manual. I am a big fan of maintaining transmissions. Change the fluid and filter and adjust the bands on a regular basis and the transmission should last pretty well. Even Chrysler transmissions that are in a lot of cases under-spec'ed for the job do just fine with good maintenance. Orange peel on an unfinished project on craigslist? What is the world coming to? I tell you what. Bring it by the house and I will give it a no expense spared mirror finish paint job. It'll cost you ten grand, and I won't make much money on the job, but it'll be nice. Tomorrow I am picking up my paint from the paint store. I am starting with two quarts of Nason (DuPont's low cost brand). I was less that $150 out the door at the DuPont jobber (he's also a friend so he cuts me good deals) If I wanted to go with DuPont's high end stuff it would have cost me $800. I'll be leaving some shine on the table, but it will be a lot better than it was. I have been shooting paint a couple of times a week lately so I am in good practice. I am happy that my engine is clean enough to paint...spent some time on it with the simple green, a toothbrush and the pressure washer. I pulled out all the old freeze plugs today and I am picking up the new freeze plugs tomorrow. After the freeze plugs are in and the engine is in paint the engine is done. I simple greened and pressure washed the frame as well today. Once the engine is done I will sandblast and paint that. Then comes the floors. Mark Wallace 81 Wag ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:09:17 -0600 From: "wallacem7-at-aol.com"<wallacem7-at-aol.com> Subject: fsj: Steering box adjustment Landon- I will snap a pic of the steering box adjustment screw on mine either tonight or tomorrow. It is out in the open with my clip all disassembled and my drivetrain out. Other considerations are to check your ball joints and rod ends. Also do you have a loose tilt column? A loose tilt column is not difficult at all to fix. Mark Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 10:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com> Subject: Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment in whose world is a tilt column "not difficult" to fix? :) ok, sure, it's easier than rebuilding an automatic transmission, but more challenging than rebuilding a carb, or swapping an engine... ;) well, maybe a transmission... :) http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Tilt-Column-Repair/all-pix.html http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Tilt-Column-Repair/steering-column.html but you're right about the steering box adjustment, should be able to reach it from the top on the DS, there will be a locknut with a large slot in the middle, turn it in a bit and that should tighten things up, but be careful not to make it bind. This adjustment is pretty common to a multitude of vehicles I've worked on... rack and pinion of course being quite different... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, wallacem7-at-aol.com wrote: # Landon- # # I will snap a pic of the steering box adjustment screw on mine either # tonight or tomorrow. It is out in the open with my clip all disassembled and # my drivetrain out. # # Other considerations are to check your ball joints and rod ends. Also do you # have a loose tilt column? A loose tilt column is not difficult at all to # fix. # # Mark # # # Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:58:55 -0500 From: Kim Tesar <ltesar3421-at-sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment Thanks, John. I'll give it a shot. - - L ////// On Jul 25, 2011, at 12:03 PM, john wrote: > in whose world is a tilt column "not difficult" to fix? :) > > ok, sure, it's easier than rebuilding an automatic transmission, > but more challenging > than rebuilding a carb, or swapping an engine... ;) well, maybe a > transmission... :) > > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Tilt-Column-Repair/all-pix.html > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Tilt-Column-Repair/steering-column.html > > but you're right about the steering box adjustment, should be able > to reach it from the > top on the DS, there will be a locknut with a large slot in the > middle, turn it in a bit > and that should tighten things up, but be careful not to make it > bind. This adjustment > is pretty common to a multitude of vehicles I've worked on... rack > and pinion of course > being quite different... > > john > > > ----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, wallacem7-at-aol.com wrote: > > # Landon- > # > # I will snap a pic of the steering box adjustment screw on mine > either > # tonight or tomorrow. It is out in the open with my clip all > disassembled and > # my drivetrain out. > # > # Other considerations are to check your ball joints and rod ends. > Also do you > # have a loose tilt column? A loose tilt column is not difficult > at all to > # fix. > # > # Mark > # > # > # Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT) From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com> Subject: Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment check all the tie rods and drag link as well... a used steering box isn't very much... some hefty nuts to get loose but manageable... actually I think I took my used box to the front end shop, had them swap it out and align the front end... if it's a local type shop they may not even charge you, or very little. the biggest headache is the pitman arm. and the bolts to the frame may not be happy coming off either... ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, Kim Tesar wrote: # Thanks, John. I'll give it a shot. # # - L # ////// # On Jul 25, 2011, at 12:03 PM, john wrote: # # >in whose world is a tilt column "not difficult" to fix? :) # > # >ok, sure, it's easier than rebuilding an automatic transmission, but more # >challenging # >than rebuilding a carb, or swapping an engine... ;) well, maybe a # >transmission... :) # > # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Tilt-Column-Repair/all-pix.html # > http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Tilt-Column-Repair/steering-column.html # > # >but you're right about the steering box adjustment, should be able to reach # >it from the # >top on the DS, there will be a locknut with a large slot in the middle, turn # >it in a bit # >and that should tighten things up, but be careful not to make it bind. This # >adjustment # >is pretty common to a multitude of vehicles I've worked on... rack and # >pinion of course # >being quite different... # > # >john # > # > # > ----- # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all # > Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold # > http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 # > http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us # >------------------------------------------------------------------------ # > # > # >On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, wallacem7-at-aol.com wrote: # > # > # Landon- # > # # > # I will snap a pic of the steering box adjustment screw on mine either # > # tonight or tomorrow. It is out in the open with my clip all disassembled # > # and # > # my drivetrain out. # > # # > # Other considerations are to check your ball joints and rod ends. Also do # > # you # > # have a loose tilt column? A loose tilt column is not difficult at all to # > # fix. # > # # > # Mark # > # # > # # > # Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless # > # # ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 21:01:04 -0700 (PDT) From: john <john-at-wagoneers.com> Subject: fsj: Re: Grand wagoneer 90 transfer case issue oh, this sounds familiar... had this happen on my '91 GW... the center diff/viscous coupler unit is failing... I had this happen at 75 mph some 45 miles from home... got it working in low range... and then it kind of stayed... was able to continue another 20 miles further into the adventure and head back home... it acted up about a mile from the house... had to drive the last mile home in low range... if someone ran gear lube in this device, or ever engaged 4x4 without a front driveshaft, or with hubs disengaged it damaged it... I think mine failed because I had a 6.2 Diesel in front of it... another friend had his fail because someone used gear lube to fill the case. you can replace this with an NP219, NP228 or NP229 without having to change the driveshafts. If you try to use an NP208 you'll need a different shaft rear shaft I believe... the case on the 208 is noticeably thinner... so it must be the rear shaft. You might be able to find the viscous coupler at a transmission shop. Or via on-line parts... shop around though as this part could be very, very expensive and it may be cheaper to swap the entire xfr case. If you're up in the PNW I highly recommend Dave's Lynnwood Transmission Service, Dave Sr. would be your best bet, but Dave Jr. might be a good source as well. Olympic 4x4 may have a case or know of one... Crown Automotive parts distributer might have the part, as might BJ's Offroad. you can let Dave, BJs or Olympic know I sent you, might get a price break, or at the least a hard time. :) the 228/229 isn't a bad xfr case, but I don't like that it doesn't have a high lock feature like the 219. I do like the full time capability of it. In the XJ models the NP242 is a nice unit, has 4x2, 4x4 low-lock, 4x4-high-lock and 4x4-high "open" like your np229. rumour has it that the 228 has a center differential unit instead of a viscous coupler, however when looking at a variety of documentation, as in shop manuals, parts lists, etc. it's listed both ways... so if you can find a 228 you may get a center differential unit instead of a viscous coupler that lives in the 229 for certain. Then NP219 was used from 80-82 and does have a viscous coupler but I've had several without problems, and don't recall of hearing about any failing... I'm not sure if an XJ xfr case could be adapted... but they are almost all slip yoke setups which are NOT desireable... the rear seals leak and if you get broadsided by a Saab that submarines a bit it'll pull your rear driveshaft out and you will have to be towed home... don't ask me how I know about that problem... ;) I'm on my windoze box editing some fotos right now or I'd provide some links, they'll be in http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech look for the transfer case directories, also check JEEPS and XJ/tech. in the meantime, if it does fail you should be able to move about in low range... just try not to merge on the freeway like that or you might have a saab submarine story... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, geronimo-at-pipeline.com wrote: # Hello John, # # i sent an email via your website, and then i found your email on a page so i am sending as well to this address just in case # Maybe you guys can help me resolve a weird problem # # I ran into a problem on my GW 90 (transfer case NP229) that drove me nuts for the past days as I cant understand what is going on # # Feels like the transfercase is disengaging (like going in neutral) when I am in 2x4 high gear. # # How it happened # # I was driving when I had to brake very hard and while stopping I heard like a whistle , like pinions trying to get in gear, same as when going from high gear to low gear if the transfer case is still spinning till i can get in in gear. Then When I tried to move forward nothing happened like the case was in neutral # # To get out of the road I switch to 4x4 from the dash then put the TC lever in low gear and then it went , I stopped and put it back in high 2x4 and it went ok, but now every time I brake the same thing happens unless braking very slow, then i found out that putting in reverse everytime i stop seams to keep the whole thing in gear, then back in drive and I take off as if nothing happened. If I don't do the reverse trick and taking off normally it will feel like the pinions are jumping teeth trying to get in gear till they get in place and then I could drive ok, that is only when braking gently, if braking hard it will go completly out of gear in neutral # # What do you think, ? # # Last, at one point after braking hard (as I got stuck in "neutral" again) I had again to do the 4x4 low gear trick to move forward and then when I went back in high gear 2x4 the transfercase stayed in low gear despite the lever being in high gear, I had to play with the transfercase lever a few times to have it back in high gear 2x4 and drive back to normal like nothing happened # # I checked the linkage , looked ok to me , but I am no expert when it come to transfer case. # # We checked as well teh mounts , all of them are ok, could it be a problem related to the vacuum motor ? which by the way moves ok back and forth when playing with the dash switch # # Let me know you opinion and sorry for the long problem story # # Regards # # John # # # # # ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:04:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Wallace <wallacem7-at-aol.com> Subject: Re: fsj: Steering box adjustment # >in whose world is a tilt column "not difficult" to fix? :) In my little world restoring a complete and total basket case makes more sense than buying a better car for less money. The last three major restorations I have done have been total basket cases. One of them was an incomplete car of which 600 were made. (Elva Courier MK IV - look it up). My MG's body is pieced together out of at least four cars, maybe more. The Pontiac I am working on right now is also a wreck. I restored a 1965 Mustang once and it kept going through my mind that that car was just too easy to restore. You would just phone up the Mustang parts house and the parts would show up three days later. You didn't have to research what the part may have been pilfered from or make anything. I think of small block Chevys as being like playing with legos. In fixing a tilt column you get to sit in the seat, you get to stay more or less clean, and if you have the little tool to pull the pivots it is not too bad. Maybe two of your favorite CD's on your garage radio (if you have no tunes in your shop you have an under equipped shop.) Working on cars around here is sort of like washing dishes...I do it nearly every day and it is never done. I am toying with the idea of rebuilding my own steering box. That might be a good job for the winter. Gotta rebuilt the 28 Ford's steering box too. They both leak. Difficult jobs: 1. Setting a differential with a crush sleeve with no impact wrench (AMC Model 20)...it takes a giant breaker bar and a lot of muscle. (my shoulder is too beat up for me to consider this method now) 2. Rusted leaf spring bolts 3. Gas tank removal with a full tank of gas 4. Making a complete wiring harness and getting it to work Mark Wallace 81 Wagoneer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 06:09:53 -0700 From: "Paul Kershner" <pk.auctions-at-frontier.com> Subject: fsj: RE: Re: Grand wagoneer 90 transfer case issue I have a spare NP229, removed from the Deerslayer. Don't know how much its worth, but I would sell it if someone needs it. BTW, this is the one the transmission shop robbed me for $800 on the way to Ouray... Paul - -----Original Message----- From: owner-fsj-at-digest.net [mailto:owner-fsj-at-digest.net] On Behalf Of john Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 9:01 PM To: geronimo-at-pipeline.com Cc: full size jeep list; Terry Halmshaw Subject: fsj: Re: Grand wagoneer 90 transfer case issue oh, this sounds familiar... had this happen on my '91 GW... the center diff/viscous coupler unit is failing... I had this happen at 75 mph some 45 miles from home... got it working in low range... and then it kind of stayed... was able to continue another 20 miles further into the adventure and head back home... it acted up about a mile from the house... had to drive the last mile home in low range... if someone ran gear lube in this device, or ever engaged 4x4 without a front driveshaft, or with hubs disengaged it damaged it... I think mine failed because I had a 6.2 Diesel in front of it... another friend had his fail because someone used gear lube to fill the case. you can replace this with an NP219, NP228 or NP229 without having to change the driveshafts. If you try to use an NP208 you'll need a different shaft rear shaft I believe... the case on the 208 is noticeably thinner... so it must be the rear shaft. You might be able to find the viscous coupler at a transmission shop. Or via on-line parts... shop around though as this part could be very, very expensive and it may be cheaper to swap the entire xfr case. If you're up in the PNW I highly recommend Dave's Lynnwood Transmission Service, Dave Sr. would be your best bet, but Dave Jr. might be a good source as well. Olympic 4x4 may have a case or know of one... Crown Automotive parts distributer might have the part, as might BJ's Offroad. you can let Dave, BJs or Olympic know I sent you, might get a price break, or at the least a hard time. :) the 228/229 isn't a bad xfr case, but I don't like that it doesn't have a high lock feature like the 219. I do like the full time capability of it. In the XJ models the NP242 is a nice unit, has 4x2, 4x4 low-lock, 4x4-high-lock and 4x4-high "open" like your np229. rumour has it that the 228 has a center differential unit instead of a viscous coupler, however when looking at a variety of documentation, as in shop manuals, parts lists, etc. it's listed both ways... so if you can find a 228 you may get a center differential unit instead of a viscous coupler that lives in the 229 for certain. Then NP219 was used from 80-82 and does have a viscous coupler but I've had several without problems, and don't recall of hearing about any failing... I'm not sure if an XJ xfr case could be adapted... but they are almost all slip yoke setups which are NOT desireable... the rear seals leak and if you get broadsided by a Saab that submarines a bit it'll pull your rear driveshaft out and you will have to be towed home... don't ask me how I know about that problem... ;) I'm on my windoze box editing some fotos right now or I'd provide some links, they'll be in http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech look for the transfer case directories, also check JEEPS and XJ/tech. in the meantime, if it does fail you should be able to move about in low range... just try not to merge on the freeway like that or you might have a saab submarine story... john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -o|||||o- fahrvergnugen y'all Snohomish, Washington - where Jeeps and VWs don't rust, they mold http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 http://JohnMeister.com HTTP://WAGONEERS.COM http://fotomeister.us - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, geronimo-at-pipeline.com wrote: # Hello John, # # i sent an email via your website, and then i found your email on a page so i am sending as well to this address just in case # Maybe you guys can help me resolve a weird problem # # I ran into a problem on my GW 90 (transfer case NP229) that drove me nuts for the past days as I cant understand what is going on # # Feels like the transfercase is disengaging (like going in neutral) when I am in 2x4 high gear. # # How it happened # # I was driving when I had to brake very hard and while stopping I heard like a whistle , like pinions trying to get in gear, same as when going from high gear to low gear if the transfer case is still spinning till i can get in in gear. Then When I tried to move forward nothing happened like the case was in neutral # # To get out of the road I switch to 4x4 from the dash then put the TC lever in low gear and then it went , I stopped and put it back in high 2x4 and it went ok, but now every time I brake the same thing happens unless braking very slow, then i found out that putting in reverse everytime i stop seams to keep the whole thing in gear, then back in drive and I take off as if nothing happened. If I don't do the reverse trick and taking off normally it will feel like the pinions are jumping teeth trying to get in gear till they get in place and then I could drive ok, that is only when braking gently, if braking hard it will go completly out of gear in neutral # # What do you think, ? # # Last, at one point after braking hard (as I got stuck in "neutral" again) I had again to do the 4x4 low gear trick to move forward and then when I went back in high gear 2x4 the transfercase stayed in low gear despite the lever being in high gear, I had to play with the transfercase lever a few times to have it back in high gear 2x4 and drive back to normal like nothing happened # # I checked the linkage , looked ok to me , but I am no expert when it come to transfer case. # # We checked as well teh mounts , all of them are ok, could it be a problem related to the vacuum motor ? which by the way moves ok back and forth when playing with the dash switch # # Let me know you opinion and sorry for the long problem story # # Regards # # John # # # # # ------------------------------ End of fsj-digest V1 #3753 **************************